[islandlabs] Incorporation, bylaws, random details.

Minuk Choi choi.minuk at gmail.com
Thu Oct 15 15:25:27 EDT 2015

Hey Bill,

Sorry, sometimes I forget which name I go by.

If we can compromise, put off some of the checkmark, we may be able to
entertain other places.

Minuk Mark Choi

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015, 15:01 Burns, William <burns at cshl.edu> via List <
list at lists.islandlabs.org> wrote:

> Chris:
> Re:
> Taking incorporation details to a smaller group.
> I agree.
> I'd like to get some of this chatter off the main mailing list.
> Do you want to be in that group?
> That group should include:
> Ariella, John, Louisa, Jeff, Me, James, Ellis, Jonathan, RJ if he ever
> gets in touch w/ us again...
> Mark? (I think he just sent us mail)
> Who else?
> Re: Bylaws.
> Yup. AFAIK: that's our next big thing, and it needs to be discussed in a
> smaller, more focused group.
> Re: The Red Sail X700:
> if it's similar in size to the "Full Spectrum" laser cutter that Surface
> Grooves uses, is way too large for us to keep in our existing space.
> (a glowforge could be stowed on top of a filing cabinet)
> Re: Teaching classes:
> I don't think you had any objection to James' TinkerCAD presentation...
> The limiting factor when it comes to paid classes is people w/ adequate
> confidence/skill to teach them and marketing muscle to recruit paying
> students.
> Re: Dues.
> I'm not comfortable w/ collecting dues when we don't (yet) have bills to
> pay.
> I don’t want to be in the position of finding that money was spent and
> then not being able to provide services that people expected to get in
> return.
> ...on the other hand, a landlord might not rent to us without us being
> able to demonstrate the ability (funds in bank) to pay rent for a year.
> Re: Rental Cost.
> Last week we celebrated being able to scrape together $900 a month for
> rent.
> Then someone found a place for $900 a month. (a milestone, but maybe just
> barely affordable 'cause we'd have other expenses)
> Then someone thought this meant we could afford $2000 a month.
> We're still ignoring potential insurance costs.
> We seem to have a problem w/ paying attention to basic finance details and
> managing expectations.
> If/when we get a space, will our dues/financing be sustainable?
> Getting a space is supposed to attract more dues-paying members.
> (That's been a fundamental assumption)
> More members *could* mean lower dues.
> If/when our finances get good enough, I'd like to see the dues reduced.
> (to maybe $50/mo?)
> For the moment, "space founders" would have to start at $100/mo, w/
> probably 3 months paid up-front in order to cover the first+last month and
> a deposit.
> (these are bare minimum figures... changing locks, utilities, buying stuff
> to put in the space, that's all extra)
> Re: What's a Maker Space?
> I'm  surprised these questions come up, but Ellis made an interesting
> distinction.
> A "Fab-Lab" (meaning paying for time on tools and then leaving) is *not*
> our makerspace vision.
> Re: What's a Maker:
> Well, what we've *been* making shouldn't be *the* definition of what makes
> you a maker.
> Knitting. That's fine.
> Woodworking, That's fine.
> Software, That's fine.
> Papercraft, that's fine.
> Musical Instruments, that's fine. (hopefully more than playing them)
> Basically, if you want to build stuff + see it work (or improve your
> abilities along those lines) that's what it is.
> What's *not* our kind of maker?
> Well, we can give presentations to kids that involve "macaroni and paper
> plate" kinds of making.
> ..but there are many "library" makerspaces that fill that niche/need.
> I don't want to put an age limit on things, but:
> We are *not* a day care center w/ activities.
> We *do* want to improve communities, starting w/ our own members and
> moving on from there.
> -Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From: list-bounces+burns=cshl.edu at lists.islandlabs.org [mailto:
> list-bounces+burns=cshl.edu at lists.islandlabs.org] On Behalf Of Chris
> Knadle <Chris.Knadle at coredump.us> via List
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 10:43 AM
> To: list at lists.islandlabs.org
> Subject: Re: [islandlabs] Tuesday LILUG; Wednesday Island Labs;
> Hey, Ellis.
> Ellis Farmer <saxywolf at gmail.com> via List:
> > *Re: ​​Laser cutter* ​Make Lehigh Valley recently ​purchased a laser
> > cutter.  I wasn't involved in it, but I'm sure the guys who were would
> > answer any questions you had ​ and have advice on how to avoid extra
> > costs​ .  I see you might be considering a several thousand dollar
> > machine... As for Glow​ forge, I'd be uncomfortable buying from a
> > company that calls them ​"3D" or even ​ "printers." ​​ We bought a ​​
> > Red Sail X700 which is pretty big (harder to find a home for but more
> > than double the work area). ​I ts a 60W with accessories and materials
> > for ​I believe ​ $3k.
> The Red Sail X700 looks very similar to the laser cutter I saw at Surface
> Grooves which definitely "did the job".
> > Glow​ forge's best offer is 45W and midrange "early bird" offer is
> > ​almost as expensive ​ and​ ​ just for the machine​ .  You could
> > always do an Indiegogo campaign
> > <https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/make-lehigh-valley-laser-cutter--2
> > /x/3772739#/>
> >
> > to raise funds as a group. As for *needing* a lasercutter.
> One of the Island Labs members brought up this idea of similar
> crowdsourcing at last week's meeting; it's probably a good idea to try.
> > .. I might hold
> > off until there is a long term home for it, but if one person donates
> > a majority of the cost, I doubt others would have a problem if it
> > lived in a place of that person's choosing until a home for it is
> > found at a space.
> Right, I'm not terribly concerned about where a laser cutter unit lived as
> long as the group had occasional access to it at the meeting.  (Even if it
> was "by request only".)  Right now we're using borrowed space (no good
> place to store the unit), so I think someone would end up having to take
> the laser cutter home with them and lugging it to and from the meeting when
> it was needed, which would likely be inconvenient.
> > ​On that note, come up with a good name for your space​ that would be
> > appealing to you guys AND the general public.  Unfortunately the term
> > "The Space" got stuck and we have continued with it.
> >
> > *Re: ​​Space / Membership Dues* At $100/mo seems pretty expensive to
> > be a member unless you are quite serious.  I would suggest considering
> > a ​ lower cost membership as a second tier but with fewer member
> benefits.
> I agree.
> The issue we're struggling with is that we'd like to have our own space to
> be able to have larger tools available (drill press, CNC machine, etc), the
> typical price range we find for renting fitting space is ~$2000/mo, we
> usually get ~10 people going to the weekly meetings, and our current space
> doesn't have room for more than about that number of people to work.  i.e.
> to rent space we need to grow, and we don't have the room to grow.  Right
> now we don't have any dues at all, so switching to paying dues of $100/mo
> is a radical shift and I'm concerned whether that plan is sustainable.
> > Perhaps, while still "nomadic", you could start collecting (low) ​ ​
> > monthly dues now​ to start saving for a space, insurance, tools, etc.
> > and to begin to get a clear estimate of who is interested in being a
> > member.
> We had discussed this idea -- we tabled it for the time being because it
> wasn't clear what the tax liability would be concerning collected money.
> Maybe we could try to figure that out.
> > *Re: ​Articles of Incorporation* ​I volunteered to write Bylaws for
> > Island Labs... I tried to come up with questions for you guys, but
> > since I'd be starting from scratch (i.e. no existing positions,
> > membership levels, etc.)​ *I feel a conversation or brainstorming
> > session is in order.  Maybe a Google or Skype video chat?*
> Last night I was told that the Articles of Incorporation had been filed
> with the last few days, and as part of that several members took
> positions.  We still don't have Bylaws, so that's still open.  We have
> examples of Bylaws from several organizations we could look through
> (including MakeLV's now).
> One of the things I've found is that discussing these kinds of
> administration activities during the meetings causes some issues; the
> discussion is very disruptive to working on projects, and trying to make
> decisions this way "as a committee" leads to "bikeshedding" -- discussion
> is long and nit-picky, decisions slow and tedious... it seems frustrating
> for everybody.  It usually results in one or more involved members leaving
> the meetings for a while and the paperwork being tabled for later.  Rinse,
> wash, repeat.  This is not the only group where I see these symptoms.
> I've come to the conclusion that it would be better to work on the Bylaws
> outside of the meeting, and only going over them at the meeting once they
> were likely ready for minor corrections and/or approval.
> I'd (personally) be okay with working on the Bylaws on the mailing list,
> though I suggest using a [Bylaws] subject tag to make the thread(s) easy to
> identify.
> > *​Re: Maker Movement* ​That "Why I Am Not A Maker" article makes my
> > stomach turn and the letter she wrote to her 9 year old self made my
> > eyes leak.
> I think the message told is both heart-felt and truthful, and I don't
> think it was written intending to troll or be incendiary -- it's based on
> her experience with the Maker movement, which may differ from that of
> others.
> > It's almost unfortunate that there is no defined definition of a
> > Makerspace or what a Maker is.  It certainly wouldn't be what Debbie
> > makes it out to be. It continues to be warped by others as well such
> > as the Technopedia definition that comes up when you ask Google what
> > the maker movement is or even skewed to technology by MAKE's
> > definition <http://makerfaire.com/maker-movement/>. It's not just
> > about making things.  To me, part of the maker movement is that anyone
> > can be a maker and you don't become a maker exclusive to the other
> > things you already are, like a teacher, homemaker, food critic,
> > whatever.  It doesn't matter what you make, whether its circuit
> > boards, knitted hats, or copper wine glass tags. People make dinner
> > all the time, but nobody would consider that to make you a maker until
> > you make it in some unconventional way, but there is no specific line
> > that is crossed to be a maker.  Heck, it doesn't even matter whether
> > you yourself actually make things.  Maybe it's the spirit in which you
> > approach making.  It's unfortunate that sexism and commercialism has
> > suppressed or even squashed potential for people to become makers.
> We discussed this a fair bit at the meeting last night; one of the main
> things we all tend to do at Island Labs is experiment.  For instance one of
> the typical activities and I and others involve ourselves in is trying out
> various operating systems and software, and repairing computers or devices.
>  These are logical things to do because they usually have immediate
> practical benefits.  These activities might fit the /Makerspace/ realm, but
> they don't seem to fit the /Maker/ realm from what I can tell.
> > ​I'll admit there is a commercial side to the maker movement,
> > especially exemplified / exploited by MAKE, but that doesn't make MAKE
> bad.
> Commercialism isn't bad in-and-of-itself, but at least when it comes to
> Maker Faire NYC I think they've taken it too far.
> > In fact
> > I would say that they do spread the maker spirit albiet the technology .
> > I haven't gone back to the "Long Island Makerspace
> > <http://www.meetup.com/long-island-maker-space/>" ​after their first
> > open house because it was structured (i.e. priced and scheduled) as
> > what I would consider a FabLab where you pay for machine time and
> > otherwise don't show up.  The classes are certainly not at-cost or
> > priced for enthusiasts or students.  I understand that it's a business
> > and they must protect and upkeep their tools, but a FabLab is still a
> > FabLab is not a Makerspace (not to me anyway).  I recall getting an
> > update about the pricing where it was changing over to monthly
> > membership with also paying for machine time. Maybe it has changed
> > since, but it still seems like a place where you go to use tools and not
> a community.  Anyway...
> I haven't yet been to Long Island Makerspace -- last night we briefly
> talked about the idea of visiting there as a group for one of our weekly
> meetings.
>  One of our members has been there several times and mentioned some of
> these issues.  Surface Groove seems to be headed in a similar direction too
> from what I can tell.
> The idea of running classes for income would be another departure from
> what Island Labs normally does and it's another source of concern for me.
> > ​Bill (and other Island Labs members/founders), *as part of the Bylaws
> > we will be putting the vision for Islandlabs into words*.  ​Seems like
> > it may continue this conversation, so please feel free to write some
> > notes for discussion.  Feel free to take a look at Article I. Section 3.
> > <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2rSHZhtbmdic2tyMkhBRlRKWUE/view>
> > for more ideas on how to describe the Islandlabs vision/purpose, but
> > I'd suggest you try to come up with your own ideas first.
> Thanks for the PDF of your Bylaws... much appreciated.
>    -- Chris
> --
> Chris Knadle
> Chris.Knadle at coredump.us
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